## Video Content & Description  The legendary, Volker Von Wirth, joins us this round as we discuss taxonomy, his career in tarantulas, breeding and more. Grab some swag and use the code THN @ checkout for 15% off at https://fulviusapparel.com/ Join the Tarantula Addicts Discord - https://discord.gg/ta check out moltly - https://moltly.xyz/ https://spiders.invert.info/ ## Transcript **0:00** · Is this a live stream or you you just record? **0:03** · It's just recorded. **0:04** · Okay. **0:04** · Yeah. Just in the event of connection. **0:07** · Yeah. We weren't sure if there was going to be any connection issues or anything like that. So, okay. **0:11** · And there thereafter you place it on the on the on your YouTube channel. **0:15** · Okay. **0:16** · Yep. And um all the audio platforms and things like that. So, yeah. Spotify, stuff like that. **0:21** · iTunes. Yeah. **0:22** · Okay. **0:23** · Yeah. But uh we're here. It's episode 34 of Ara Nerds, which I just saw in my memories yesterday on Facebook. We started this in two years ago. **0:35** · Mhm. **0:36** · Wow. **0:36** · Which is pretty wild because it's gone by so quick. It feels like it's it hasn't been nearly that long, but you know, we had some gaps there where we weren't recording for a minute, just scheduling things with Nissorg and stuff initially and whatnot, but uh two years is it goes by so fast, man. It's it's crazy. Uh, but this episode as always brought to you by Tarantul Addicts. Go join that. Ditch the Facebook groups. **1:01** · Join TA, which is discord.gg/ta. Uh, the link is down below. Check that out. It's great group of people. **1:09** · Best Discord in the world. **1:11** · I'm sending some some Meera here shortly uh for the, you know, the usual giveaways and stuff they do. It's me and Phil are big on on giving them stuff, you know, supporting the the community there and everything. It's it's fantastic. Uh I have a lot of disdain for Facebook groups for the most part. **1:29** · So, if you hear me singing the praises of TA, it's because it is legitimately an awesome place to to be and and talk to people and learn. Um, everyone's super cool. Everyone supports one another. It's nice. It's there's no negativity. There's no drama. It's just it's very informational. **1:45** · It's very informational. It's very, you know, it's just nice. It's a very nice change of pace. **1:51** · Uh, and then full piece apparel, hats, shirts, all that good stuff. He's got the the Boba John Spinnop. He got the limited edition like super lime shock color that I just I had one extra and I was like, "Oh, this is Phil's size." And, you know, Yeah. I look like a highlighter. Um, but it's a great shirt. **2:08** · He'll wear that color. Yeah. **2:09** · Yeah. Oh, yeah. **2:10** · And then I have the the Bambas, you know, me being the the Bambas guy. I am. **2:14** · Uh, got the Bambish shirt on. Um, but use the code THN at checkout there. Get 15% off your order. That is the exclusive promo code for THN listeners and viewers like you. Uh, I do have some stuff to add, more stuff. I just added a bunch to the vintage vault, mostly snakes. Um, but I do have other things that I do want to get uploaded. **2:36** · There is a uh Metallica shirt, facilitary Metallica shirt that I I made a while back and sent it to Dritz and it's going to go up with his stuff at some point, but it's going to go up. I don't know if I'll do it tonight or not, but I've got some stuff to to add. So, there is more coming. Um I'm finally getting out of the the rut of being lazy and and getting stuff uploaded and dude, it's real, man. It's I don't know. **3:03** · Really is. I just I've been I've been very sluggish since Daytona. **3:07** · Been busy. **3:09** · So, um, more stuff to come. Just keep an eye out there. But \[clears throat\] this episode is one we've been looking forward to for arguably the most anticipated episode. I uh I'm very excited for this one. Um, I was looking forward to it all week. Made sure we got our questions polished off. Ran it by a couple people. Um, this is a goodie, folks. **3:34** · Yes. And we are joined by the one and only Vulker Vonworth. Uh, if that name sounds familiar because it should. **3:42** · He's a busy guy. **3:44** · He's done a lot. **3:44** · He \[clears throat\] does a lot of stuff. **3:45** · A lot of stuff. He's got some spiders named after him, you know, just a few. Just a few. So, it's, you know, he's he's the dude when it comes to tarantulas. And, uh, we got a lot to, uh, sort of a lot to dive into. So, we're we're not going to do any updates or anything. **4:02** · We'll we're recording Thursday again, so we'll we'll, you know, backtrack to all that stuff then. Um, but we're going to kind of just jump right into it. Uh, can you give us sort of a general intro into who you are, how you got into spiders? You know, you you've you've done a lot for a long time. **4:21** · You've been around the block. **4:22** · Yeah. **4:22** · Yeah. **4:24** · Can you give us sort of a timeline there? **4:26** · Yeah. **4:26** · So I'm I'm \[clears throat\] into the hobby for around about I think it's 40 years now. Um I started with I started working with spiders or interesting for spiders when I was 12 but I started with with spiders which are origin here in Germany and um which is not which is of course not tarantulas. And when I become 18 um I wanted to to um also yeah take a look at foreign spiders. Yeah. **4:56** · And um at that time the only foreign spiders from the tropical regions uh which were available were the tarantulas and so I started to keep tarantulas. Uh we had no knowledge at that time. **5:12** · There were no books. There were no Facebook or internet or something like this. Um, so I I get in contact to the next zoo and ask if he if the the the director of the of the insect section does knows any truly or so and he gave me two two to three addresses and I get in contact with them. **5:32** · One of them was al was for example Peter class which is also known in the hobby which I've met yesterday because he had a lecture here in Munich yesterday and of course we meet together and uh had some good beers and some good talks and uh yeah and and so then then it started that that we yeah we started with nothing and and um and started to keep us and we made a lot **6:02** · of mistakes in the beginning because we don't know where the trulas came from and he has no knowledge how they live and so and yeah but with the time we learned a lot and um and the informations become better and better then there was this guy named Dr. Gintto Schmidt, you maybe have heard of him. **6:20** · \[clears throat\] And so I get in contact with him and um he woke up my interest for systematic and taxonomy for the question which species do I have here and how are the species are related to each other and um yeah then in the end of the 80s and the beginning of the '9s we made some nice papers. At that time there were some probably nice papers from from the point of view from today there. Excuse me. **6:47** · But they were shitty papers \[laughter\] and um yeah but we started to describe um species like you know them all like paripos from Africa or the shilosmia droata and arny and and so on and so on. \[snorts\] Yeah. And that was the time when I started to um yeah to go very intense into this topic into the taxonomy the filogeny and the systematic and uh yeah and the things were growing. **7:23** · uh I became yeah more and more um famous into the hobby into that what was known at this time into the trantula keepers because I I've made the publications together with Schmidt and then I started to make publications alone like the description of the actual act actually meloi um and um yeah and some other things hlosmiais **7:51** · and so on and Um \[snorts\] yeah and then I've then I wrote my first books because I've I've wrote three books in German language for the beginners in Torantula tarantula keeping has nothing to do with systematics or so but it's uh it's small books which which are good for beginners that they get the first impression what is what is important and what it is about and um yeah and then to make it short uh the things becomes bigger and bigger. **8:20** · I was the chairman of the German uh arthnological society for a long time. Actually, I'm the editor of the magazine of the German arthrological society. We have uh around about 2,00 1,200 members actually. And yeah, and um I I get I was going in contact to a lot of yeah a lot of people which are working also scientifically in this hobby. **8:48** · And in the meantime, because of this of the growing of the scene, yeah, in in the USA, in in Great Britain, in in in Europe in general, in Asia, in the Philippines, and so they have a large tarantula community communities in those countries. **9:07** · And uh so there are it happened the same what happened here. There were some young guys which started then to study biology and they started as tarantula keepers for example you know him probably uh professor Faler Herzik which is a good friend of mine he's the leading authority when it comes to venom of tantalas yeah and um he's analyzing **9:33** · spider venoms and he's working in in biochemical way of with with venom of of trantoas and spiders in general And I know Falco since he was 15. He was Yeah. Because he was one he started with Toronto keeping and he was sitting on the on the we have one large expo here in Germany which took two time which is two time in the Euro which is normally in spring and in autumn. It's the same like the BTS uh uh show or you have the you have this uh expose also in the USA. **10:06** · And uh yeah he was he was a a young boy and he's selling his offspring there and uh later he he was a student and then he become a biochemist doctor in biology. He w he he go he went from Stoutgard which I lived at this time time also and where he was growing up he uh go he went to Australia where he is still now and he is at the Sunshine University in in Australia and he's yeah he's working **10:36** · scientifically with spider venoms uh yeah and so I I in in because of the of the of the people which started to keeping tarantulas often young guys uh a lot of them or or some of them started to to study biology and and yeah then they work with with systematic filogeny in this way for example we have professor Henrik Kenwinkle I don't know if you know you know him he he is famous in the area of genetic and personalia **11:10** · and um yeah and because of because of the fact that that I was at this time a leading author authority here in Germany. I have a lot of contacts to to the German professionals and also to the professionals in the world. One of my best friends for example is Rick West which I have regular contact. we we are driving we are writing every every week **11:34** · uh um because we are working on a lot of projects together and in the meantime I have a lot of um I'm I'm involved because of my experience of tarantas because in the in the in the beginning of the 2000s I started to to um examine the holotypes of the lots of tarantula species which were described before 200 years ago. **11:55** · The problem is the main problem we have in the in the in in the when it comes to triangular toxinomy or identification is that we have a lot of species described before 200 or 300 years ago and they were described in a way which was at this time the the status quo the knowledge what they have at that time but today we know we can't do anything with the descriptions because often the descriptions they describe I the the eye distance the largeness of the eyes and uh patella TVR **12:29** · length relations and so and we don't we know and they did not describe the genital morphology they did not describe stimulating origins and so on and today these are characters which are very important so we have the problem we have the species there but on the other hand we have no good informations to identify the species and what we have to do is then go into The museums take the old **12:58** · material, the type material what with what the the authors at that time had in front of their desk or on their desk and reexamine them and and make new descriptions and with this concerning the Asian tarantulas. **13:15** · I started in the in the beginning of the 2000s and because of my experience concerning the types the the the the groups or the the institutes which are working today with the systematic and philogenic for example university in Manila or um my my my friend and **13:36** · colleague Kunu in China they have the problem they have no access to the types here in Europe you know it's very difficult for them to get access and So they have me which has which had the access and which have the pictures and the informations about the types and so we work together. I was I I'm often involved into into projects like for example you see the last time the new genus cano or the magnos from Vietnam. **14:06** · I was looking at that last night. Yep. **14:09** · Yeah. **14:09** · Or the satir which I've made together with Ali Raza Zamani which is um biologist from Iran which is working in Finland very friendly and very nice guy and so yeah I'm involved into a lot of projects at the moment I'm involved in four really large projects concerning **14:30** · the um foreigner from Malagasca concerning the seleno cosmina in general concerning new species from from the Philippines and so I have I have a lot to do and uh yeah and the problem is I'm just an amateur. Yeah, I'm just \[laughter\] a hobby is I have I'm in in my my my job is or in my work I'm a shop manager of a pet shop. **14:54** · So I I I do not I I only have the time to to work scientifically in the morning or at best in the evening. But when I come home, my brain is is closed. Yeah. \[laughter\] So, normally I'm sitting in the morning there and and sitting on the on the microscope and and doing science science work, scientific work. **15:19** · Yeah. **15:19** · I remember seeing um with some of Andrew Smith's documentaries and stuff, some of that type material being, you know, 200 years old. It's like, how do you even work with how does that stuff just not disintegrate when you go to examine it? Like, it just it's crazy that a lot of that stuff is even still still viable. Yeah. **15:38** · And usable for that for that kind of thing. **15:41** · Yeah. The the material the the problem with this material is often they are very old. They are a lot often they are very fragmented. **15:51** · Um they were not not every time uh stored in alcohol or so. Sometimes they were dry especially there were two world wars in this time and so the the people there had other problems than than take take a look always on the on the on the collection and if whether is there enough alcohol in the glasses or not and so the the to work with this material is not easy sometimes very difficult but it **16:20** · works and um that was the reason I made the pictures because um when I have when I made the pictures it is not necessary to take this material again. Yeah, it can it can stay in the place in the museum and if if someone asks me for for supporting with pictures of the stilating origin or the spermatika or so then uh yeah I will work together with them. **16:46** · That's awesome. **16:46** · What are some of the tools that you're using to um like carefully remove some of these specimens from their containers? Maybe dissect them. I'm not, you know, I'm not really 100% on the process and how that works. So, I I'd love to hear about that. **17:02** · Um, it's it's yeah, sometime it's difficult. I I I use some kind of of of scissors and and such material. Um, yeah. Um there are some chemicals I use for example when when you when you when you remove a spermatika for example you you remove the area where the spermatika is **17:28** · between the book lungs and there is a lot of meat on the on the spermatika and you can you can scratch the meat away with with um what is the English word for that? Um, just a moment. **17:52** · Tweezers. Yes, tweezers. **17:53** · Oh, okay. Okay, I got you. **17:55** · And yeah, and um yeah, you can remove it. Uh, but it is not so so so clean then because there is a lot of of of pieces of meat still there. And so so you can use some chemicals where you put the spermatika in and then the next day for example I use pepsine um and and the next day um you have the **18:21** · the spermatika which is which is um which is from the same stuff where the skin is from it's a kicula um chitine I don't know if this is the English word for this okay and so then completely meters away and then I can prepare the spermatika and can make pictures and um yeah that's that's some **18:44** · techniques which which we can use um also when when I um when I when I removed u the bulb for example I used scissors and and then I placed um I I have a a special jelly where I'm where I put in the the the bulb so that I can move the bulb with a with a tweezers But uh the bulb would stay in the in the exact position I want to have it. That is the reason why I use the jelly. **19:12** · When you have alcohol for example um then you have the problem the the bulb will not stay in this position. You have to fix the bulb in with with with a little bit of sand or there's some in in the in the labor in the in the lab. You can often see that people using some kinds of of small glass uh balls or whatever. Um and there you can put the bulb in. But it I think this is very complicated. **19:42** · When you use these these glass balls, um they often lay on the on the bulb or they fall on the on the stating origin. Then you have to go with a with a um with a tweezers and and throw them away. Um so I use a special jelly which I which I produce for myself. It's a it's ultra uh ultrasound jelly. **20:08** · Oh yeah. which comes from the from the genical logist. **20:15** · Mhm. **20:15** · Because my my my girlfriend is working there and so it's easy to to get this material. **20:23** · And then I put it I put a little bit of water in that because when you use the original ultra sound jelly, it is too hard. **20:31** · Yeah. **20:31** · Yeah. But when you when you move water in and you mix it and then it becomes it becomes suspension. **20:40** · Yeah. That you can that you can place the bulb in. **20:43** · You have a a clean a straight uh uh um area um and you can place the bulb in a position where you want to have it, but it does not change the position. And this is important. So, and then I make the pictures for example from the bulb. **21:00** · Yeah. **21:00** · I've always wondered how how well like how fascinating how you manage to get such clear pictures of them in the same position that you need them in. Like I've always I've wondered that seeing the seeing the pictures of them in the papers and books and stuff like how did how that makes total sense. **21:15** · Did you just think of the uh the ultrasound gel? Like how did you kind of stumble upon that? Was someone did someone teach you that that trick? **21:22** · No, I I use it from I I started to to use it by myself. \[laughter\] That's awesome. **21:29** · That's really cool. **21:30** · There there is a a lot of a lot of things which are going which are going on in in the area of preparing characters of of making the pictures for example has a lot of to do of trial and error and uh and you receive a lot of experience with the time when I when I see at my pictures when I start to work uh with my microscope um um when I make the first **21:58** · pictures you can't compare them to the pictures I can make today because I have the experience what I have to to use, how how to manage the different uh um possibilities of the of the of the microscope so that I can make pictures which are really good. **22:14** · And um for example when I make the when I was invited to from Ali Raza Zamani to work with him on the satir on the new genus we described a large tarantulas which coming from the area from Oman and Saudi Arabia and so and when I started there **22:36** · he sent the bulbs of the of the um the types the holotypes from the from the species from Finland to me that I can or that I should make the pictures because they were not able in Finland to make the pictures of the quality I can make. **22:55** · And that is the reason he said please I sent you the bulbs and please make do make the pictures. He has the material in Finland, but he removed the bulbs and put them into a small cartoon and sent them to me and pleased me to make the pictures because I have the experience that I can make really good pictures and uh that was not the case in for him. **23:20** · Mhm. **23:20** · He's not so often working on the microscope. probably they do not have there such a microscope like I have because I have a microscope which you normally see only in universities or institutes and it it costs more than 303,000 euro and uh yeah and um this is yeah **23:42** · highassum equipment but I need this because you see when when when when you see the professionals the guys which are working in institutes and so and they have the they they have access to this material and uh so when I want when when **24:00** · I when I'm invited to to work together with them it is necessary that they can make this the same pictures because often it is the case for example with the with the with my friends in Manila and the University Manila we actually are working on the on new species from Cebu Island and from Bhol Island and **24:22** · they make pictures there and I have also material or I have the same material here in my my collection and so um then it is necessary that that I can make at least the same quality of pictures. **24:37** · Mhm. **24:38** · Like like what they can do and that is the reason why I have uh why I have such an such yeah very expensive but very very good microscope. **24:48** · Very very good. Yeah. Yep. **24:52** · There is a uh sort of a a sidebar, but talking about, you know, taxonomy and and genetics and splitting of things and and whatnot. Uh I'm so curious. There's so many species in Asia that are that are not described yet. Things like foring Kylous, Akaya, uh the Vietnam silvers, like stuff that's in the hobby. **25:17** · Yep. **25:18** · Is the reason those haven't been described yet just because they haven't gotten to those yet? Like what's where's the hurdle with getting those described? **25:28** · Two main problems. First problem is when I describe a new species, it is scientical standard that you give an exact location. **25:38** · Okay? because otherwise it's not nec it's not not usable for scientific work because when you don't know where the species exactly comes from it is difficult then for another um for another author or scientist um to identify his material for example. **25:58** · Mhm. **25:59** · First, this is the second is a lot of this material was collected without permits and today we have the pro problem that we have the Nagoya pro protocol and um especially when you work with genetic which is in the meantime which is uh yeah which is totally normal. **26:20** · Mhm. **26:20** · uh all the all the projects I talked before which I'm involved actually have all a genetic part. I'm the one who is responsible for the morphology and for the for the identification of the of the material. **26:35** · Mhm. **26:35** · Especially when it comes to the Asian material and the guys from the institute, they make the genetic part and um so when especially when you work with genetic or with genes and you want to publish uh it is every journal want to see the permits, want to see the permit number and is if you do not have they reject uh the manuscript. This is the first. **27:02** · The second is I have so many material in my collection and so many species which are still undescribed that I yeah simply have not the time at the moment to concentrate my energy on on hobby material where I do not know where it comes from where we do not have any permits for example and yeah where I do not have any interest for the moment to work with. **27:34** · Yeah. Because um I have I have a lot of material which is still not described. have a huge collection of um um Philippine material um where we all have to work with uh my my colleagues and um yeah I have a lot of material from New Genie. **27:53** · Mhm. **27:54** · Which is which is a totally unknown area and um so I have I have work more more than up to the end of my life. **28:05** · \[laughter\] Yeah. I can't even imagine. Yeah. So what what I'm what I'm doing is when when when the the Asian colleagues come to me and ask me want do you want to be a part of the of the of the of a paper which I'm preparing now because you have the experience and you can help me with with informations then I'm concentrate on the material they are working on right and and if they actually do not work with Vietnam material where we have a lot in the hobby lang and and silk silver and what what do I know? **28:37** · Um then I do not work actually with this material. Sorry for the for the hobby, but yeah, it is the case. just has me wondering with stuff like the lambdongs and like Bachmaus and all those, you know, **28:53** · guess locality type, you know, how many of those are are actually probably the same species or, you know, maybe a subspecies like I can tell you that that for example with the Lambdong there, as far as I see, there are two different color variations in the hobby, the red one and the blue one. **29:09** · I've I received material especially males and also females but the males are always better when it comes to identification work um and I compared them you can't distinguish them from the from the taxonomical point they have the same genital they have the same stimulating origin they are completely the same they probably just have another coloration yeah and so that is that is also nothing **29:36** · that that is my you see this sometimes in Facebook because I have a lot of struggle to tell the the people always don't give any uh um or how how can I say it is not important to look at the at the coloration because because color of tarantula depends on so many different factors like uh temperature um like um the the **30:03** · time after the mold or before the mold um there is the the the the the soil where they live, the color of the soil and so on. So there are a lot of factors which influence the coloration and so it is not possible to identify a tarantula for sure and you only look at the coloration and a lot of tarantula look looks extremely um extremely identical. They have the same coloration. **30:33** · For example, look at the at the Bertani at the Lazidora work from Bertani. All the Lazera species, they look all the same. **30:43** · And before some some days ago, a guy posted a lassodora. What do I know? Probably paribana and asked for an ID what this species could be. Yeah, I'm sorry. But um it is in most cases it is not possible. Aviaria, it's not possible. only from the coloration uh to say what it is. Yeah. And a lot of also the the the kamosola discussion pulra or corro. Yeah. **31:16** · It's it's You have to take a look at the at the at the mates's bulb. There were some small difference between both species and one seemed to obviously to be uh in the structure of the bulb. **31:30** · Can you identify hybrid species by looking at the bulb or sperm? **31:36** · No. Because if you we have to be careful talking about hybrid species because or hybrid individuals rather. **31:47** · It it does sound better because when you have two different species in in all normal cases they cannot reproduce. That is because that is the reason why they are different species. **32:04** · Yeah. Because uh the one of the of the main um points when it comes to species is the question are they reproductive isolated? **32:18** · Can they can they give their genes to the next generation? So when you have a male and a female from different species, probably they can produce something. Yeah. But what they produce is then not able to reproduce by itself. **32:34** · Yeah. **32:34** · Right. **32:35** · Then you have two species when it is possible that they produce something an offspring and the offspring for itself can make uh can make offsprings and so on and so on. Yeah. Then you have gene flow and this means the original the parents belongs to one species. This is the biological species concept. **32:56** · Yeah. by but it was founded by Dr. Meyer famous ontologist and um I I'm a a large friend of this species concept because this species concept is outside of of our interpretation what a species is. We have different species concept. We have a morphological species concept or a filogenetical species concept and so on. **33:22** · But all this morphological I say this is a character which is important and you say no this character is not important. So we are discussing what is the species about. **33:33** · But when you just look what they do can they can they have gene flow or not? **33:39** · Yeah that is nothing which you can interpret. They can or they cannot. **33:45** · Mhm. **33:46** · Yeah. **33:46** · And if they if they can \[clears throat\] then we say the the original species the original parents which started the the the process must be belong to one species because it can happen that you have a very large area where a species is distributed and when you when you see the the population on the left side and the population on the right side of the large area they can of course looks very different. **34:13** · Yeah. especially also in tarantulas, but they belong to one and the same species because it can happen that you can put them together and they produce something. **34:24** · Mhm. **34:25** · That is this is uh a simple explanation. In reality is much more complicated because um there but for in in Toronto we I I would say we we do not have often hybrids and if we have hybrids then they we have hybrids of individuals individuals which belongs to one species. **34:55** · W okay well that that was a great explanation. So it like um like a quote unquote hybrid individual, right, would essentially not be able to reproduce past like it wouldn't be able to pass its genes on is essentially what you're you're saying. **35:10** · Mhm. When when they can reproduce Yeah. **35:15** · then, as I said before, then they probably look different. As I said before, when you have the the species which lives on the left side in the population left side and on the thousand kilometers down on the right side, they can look different and the hybrid probably looks also then different or a mixture of both of colorations. Yeah. But as long as the hybrid for itself can also reproduce and reproduce and reproduce, we have to say they they the the split in evolutionary scenario. **35:48** · The split of the two populations is not is not um yeah is not at the end. He's not full full splitted because not diverged enough. In evolutional time, one day they will reach a point where the genes will not collect connect. They can reproduce probably because of their simple morphology. Because when you look at the torant bulb, it's a simple morphology. **36:18** · He can make he can mate with a lot of females which have a spermatica where it fits. Yeah. But but when you then recognize that the sperm the genes in the sperm will not connect to the to the to the gene to the genes from the female and nothing is produced because of this then you have the point where you have two different species. **36:43** · Right? **36:44** · And this this the discussion of the hybrids often just occurs because the people have different looking tarantulas. Yeah. And as I as I told before, the coloration of tarantulas is often different because of so many reasons. **37:04** · Interesting. So if you had, let's say, again, like a hypothetical hybrid individual, you could you could really only tell by attempting to reproduce with that individual and determining if the offspring are viable. Is that what is that what I'm taking away here? **37:19** · Yeah. If you have enough time, you can do this and then you can see, okay, they can reproduce. So, they obviously do not belong to different species. **37:29** · Okay. **37:30** · Okay. I see what you're saying. **37:31** · What are your uh what are your on that topic of of coloration and differences because I know Phil's Phil's thinking it, but uh for like the Terranocus Minus varieties, do you think there's any sort of subspeciation happening there? Do you think that it's it's all just simple variations for you know the the the term sub the term subspecies is a is a is a term which comes from the taxonomy. **37:58** · When you have a subspecies, you have a population which belongs to a species but which differ in at least at least one character and 95% of the population has or must have this character in in comparison to the other population of the same species. Yeah, we have some good examples in the tarantula community. We all know some opio cami and some opios aminia. Yeah. **38:30** · When you when you put them in the in the terrarium, you will see they re combinate. They the every generation re combinate. That is proved for a long time since 30 years. Now they produce offspring which means they originally belongs to one species. When you look at the distribution area, you see that the Cambridge comes from, I think, was Trinidad and the Einia comes from the from Venezuela, from the mainland. Yeah. **38:58** · Before 10,000 years ago, they had contact because the the the the sea level was was much deeper and so they had contact. **39:11** · Then the the sea level goes up and so you have the Trinidad Island and from now on the the tarantulas there couldn't get in contact to the trantulas on the Venetian mainland which means they started to to change their their genes in an evolutionary time but 10,000 years is nearly nothing when it comes to species pro process. Yeah. **39:36** · Which means they can when you put them in the in the terrarium together, you see they will reproduce and the offsprings are also able to reproduce which means they they in the sense in the biological species concept they belong to to one of the same species. They can do this actually not in the nature because there is the sea. **40:01** · Mhm. **40:01** · But what will happen when the sea was when the sea level was was going down again? Yeah. because then they start to get in again contact and then we we have the same problem what we see for example with the beers with the grizzly and and the ice beers. **40:16** · Yeah. **40:16** · Because now they reproduce by themselves and they produce a a hybrid which is obviously or what my information uh says is is better adopted to the environment than than the original species. **40:32** · Right. **40:32** · Yeah. **40:32** · So I I suppose with with a time this hybrid will be the main beer in this area and this probably can also happen for example with the hybrids of the Cambridge and Armenia when the sea level goes down and they get they get in contact again and reproduce and then they do it probably will do the same what they are doing in the in the in our terrarium terrariums in our cages they will reproduce. Yeah. **41:00** · So what we can what we can do actually coming back to the question concerning the subspecies for taxonomical point they are subspecies because \[snorts\] the one population on Trinidad or the the the species the specimens on Trinidad differ in coloration clearly in in comparison to the to the to the Venezuelan mainland. **41:32** · Yeah. And so we can say okay if they differ in coloration for example because they are much darker the aminia and the the camrii is much lighter then we can say okay 95% of the population show this character then we can say okay we describe the aminia should the aminia should have been described as a subspecies of the of the camrii but but at this time nobody has the **41:59** · knowledge especially not the the the guy which was a German guy which described the Armenia because at that time we all had the impressions because of the description from Schmidt. Oh, it is very easy to describe a tarantula and um so there were a lot of young guys which have nothing to do with biology but which recognize oh I can have a name when I when I describe a tarantula and um yeah **42:25** · that what was the the case what what happened and so we have we have sometimes examples where we can say okay we know they can they can produce hybrids in the in in the in the in in the terrariums. \[clears throat\] And um but the hybrids for itself are still able to produce offsprings and so they they should belong to one of the same species but the parents look different. **43:00** · And so if this is the case in in 95% of the population of the parents then we can say okay we have subspecies or we have a subspecies here. subspecies is something which is not very or no no taxonomist is happy to produce subspecies. **43:17** · Yeah. **43:17** · And um so normally I it is enough when you have a description and for example you say okay we have here a different uh we have here a character which which shows um yeah which looks different in this population in in contrast to the other population. And you can you can mention this because then then everybody who is reading the paper knows okay there is something different. **43:45** · For example, when it comes to Akantasua genolata, you remember the description of the genolata, the the new description from PA at al and um they recognize that the males have on the bulb. The one population has one ke lost in contrast to the others that were the males with a with a with a with a smaller uh joint ring. They also lost one ke. And so and the populations have distance of 700 kilometers. **44:20** · Wow. **44:21** · Okay. **44:21** · That's significant of of the of the main aantasura genical of of and so there we have for example or probably the case that we have also two subspecies whatever but nobody will describe such such a thing as a a subspecies. In the in the description they showed with the pictures. **44:42** · Here you can see like what what the what the the ail what what it is is changing up to the to the to the fact that that he is really gone in in one population and and that's enough that is enough for me as a worker in this group that I see okay when I have a material which has no achil but looks like a square genata in all the other characters then it is a genata. Okay. **45:12** · Interesting. **45:14** · \[snorts\] Do you think that uh evolution selected for that that one less keel or why why do you think that occurred? That's that's very specific. **45:25** · All has something to do with evolution. **45:27** · Yeah. **45:28** · I don't know. I don't know why they lost the a keel in in in this individuals. I have no clue because you see a co correlation because what I said before the achille is lost and on the other side the joint ring the white jointed ring is not so bright uh like in the in the classical aantosuya genolata. **45:53** · Mhm. Interesting. **45:55** · Yeah. **45:55** · \[snorts\] Let's Can you can you talk a little bit about uh the process of finding uh Fang Kyla's Haiti Haiti like inhabitat and just like uh kind of what that was like? **46:14** · Um I'm just I I only belong to the team which described this species. Um this background is my my my friend Frank Schneider. It's a German guy. He always goes to Indonesia and and uh searching **46:34** · for tarantulas there and um he he always has has the permits to collect there and to they export them to Europe and um when he was at at Sulaveves he found this this pieces and what what he's doing is when he's coming back he gives me the material and ask me what is it so and I recognize that it is something new that it is a new species And um say so for me at this time **47:05** · uh um it yeah we recognized that that or described it as a forming child as Hatiati. Um that was we used the same name like this for what this species is known in the hobby as the same this the same what we used with the aspos rufus. **47:27** · Mhm. Yeah. One one of the most famous. This is what you see in my back here. Uh the red the red uh uh arboral tarantula. **47:36** · One of my favorites. **47:38** · Yeah. This is this is one of my really favorite. There is a story behind this. This is a very interesting and and funny story. **47:44** · Oh, tell it. **47:45** · In the in the in the in the beginning of the 2000s, you you you just have to see the background of the time. At this time in the beginning of the 2000s the only arboral on which was known were some few uh um omoamous shiate specimen in the hobby. Some some English guy had one or so and we we in the hobby we know this species but we we said no no nobody has this. There were only a few guys which have a female here and a female there. Yeah. **48:17** · But it was a dream for a lot of of of uh us Tarantula keepers. One day I want to have such a species, such a such a specimen, such a female because we we never have seen an arboral tarantula except Pilotaria. **48:36** · Mhm. **48:36** · Um in the in in the hobby. Yeah. And then you have a tarantula with a yellow carak and with a nice drawings on the back and strange. Yeah. Yeah. And so only a few guys have this. So I was called to a guy which has imported an Indonesian uh import nearby Frankfurt. He called me and said, "Hey, can you come? I have some dead material here and can take a look and can tell me what what I have there." **49:06** · Yeah. Was a dealer. And so I said, "Okay, I I take my microscope and I drove to the to this dealer. I know what will happen what what should happen because at this time um there was regularly important the selenocay jaanensis and cellosmia jaenzens has so many different colorations black one brownish uh light brown dark brown whatever and I I knew he has a lot **49:36** · of senosenzes different coloration and he was of the opinion all different species so I took my micro microscope. I drove to him and then I he he gave me the that material where some some specimen were were dead female specimen and Javan is is very easy to identify because of the spermatika they have a U-shaped spermatika and because of the stillating origin. **50:02** · So what I what I've done is I I prepared the sterilating origin and shows him under the microscope that the brownish one is the same like the black one and so on. Yeah. **50:14** · He becomes more and more disappointed of course and \[laughter\] and yeah and suddenly he take a glass tank and said and in the import there was also this pieces and I looked at this tarantula and remember the background there was a red tarantula which looks like an arbor tarantula from Asia red with with with this markings on the abdomen and and the and I Okay. I become nearly a heart attack. **50:44** · And I \[laughter\] said I but I keep cool. And I said, "Yeah, it's something from Indonesia. It's nothing special." "Yeah, you can you can have it." "Okay, I will take." Yes. **50:56** · \[laughter\] Yeah. **50:58** · Yeah. **50:58** · \[clears throat\] So I put it in my car and uh when I drive back home the tarantula decide to mold in the car and in the car you know it was shaking and so Mhm. **51:11** · at the end it's stuck in the mold. **51:14** · Oh man it died. Yeah it died. It's stuck in a mold. But at that time, as I told before I had a lot of tight material examined, especially from this area from the arbor trantas of of the onto I had I know I knew what forosilus tigos is. I knew what fingosis ever is. **51:36** · I knew what is and so on and so on. So I had a dead material unfortunately dead. And the first what I've done is examining what is it and I recognize that this antula is very near related concerning the characters to flamingo childless tigrinos. **51:57** · Yeah. And so I knew this is a new species. It's not tigros but it is it is very near related. So and then I talked to my friend Frank Schneider. I said Frank when you will earn a lot of money then you should find this species. But we don't know where it comes from because it was an Indonesian import and the Indonesian imports were come from Sumatra. There were material from Sumatra, from Java, from the Moluca up to New Guinea. **52:24** · Yeah. **52:25** · Oh wow. **52:25** · And so we don't know where. Yeah. **52:27** · Because in this in the imports at that time you had the Java Nances then you had Senosmir Ephera and you have the Shiloca Droata Anstie from New Jersey. So all this area is was was was collected by the by the dealers and were then exported to the USA to Europe and so on. So we have no clue where does this tarantula comes from. And I said okay maybe one day you will find this. **52:54** · Yeah. And one day, years later, it was I think it was 2010 or so, he sent me a picture when he was in in in in Indonesia and the picture you see in the back of me. He sent me this picture and he asked me, "Is this the Tarantula?" **53:10** · And I said, "Yes, Frank, this is the Tarantula." And so then he had the possibility. **53:16** · Yeah. **53:16** · He had the permits and he could collect some few and um yeah, the rest is history. This tarantula was then described as ashino's rufus because we we recognize it is different to to from **53:31** · migosillos evereti and um it is probably it is near related to tiguinos but we can actually we cannot clearly decide whether turinos also belongs into the asposilos genus or not but this is this is not the point this tantel become receives a name you know it was in the hobby for a long time as flamingos rufus. **53:56** · And so we also decided when we described this tarantula, we described the hatihati and the rufus in the same paper. **54:03** · We said, okay, we use the the hobby names. We can use them because they they fit as as species names. And um yeah, in the meantime, of course, because Frank found them, we know where they occur. **54:18** · And um Ashpinosils Rufus uh comes from Mount Agapuru which is in the eastern Java. And there is only two there's only two populations or two two areas where where the tran lives in the in the habitats in in in on the mount agapuru and one habitat is in the meantime destroyed by a tea plantage. **54:42** · So we c we don't know what is with the other habitat but it can be the case that this tarantula is extinct in the nature. **54:52** · So we we have the only possibility to to have this tarantula still have this is uh that we breed them in the hobby. God bless this tarantula is very easy to breed in my collection. I have more than 40 or 50 specimens with which which are **55:10** · in my from from different um um offsprings and so um I I breed them regularly and um in the meantime here in Europe I don't know what it is in the USA but here in Europe you do not receive much money for them um because because they were so often pretty common. **55:29** · Yeah. **55:29** · Yeah. **55:29** · Very common. Exactly. But uh I don't care because this is one of the nicest tarantulas I've I've ever seen because of the red coloration and um and because they are easy to breed and and because of the history which is behind the description and all this experience I've met with this tarantula um I'm I'm yeah I'm I'm very concentrate on on keeping this tarantula in the hobby and keeping keeping it in my collection and breeding it. **56:00** · So what was the the reasoning behind putting it in a spinyus instead of faming kyilus? **56:07** · Um you you mean why why it is not in in for but inspos? **56:14** · Um um the the whole complex fromaselma they have one character in common which is a so-called sapomi for the all this this triangulas and the females have on the on the on the yeah to say the technical words on the apical side which means on the on the on the on the distal side of the tibia. vententral they have a coupe of spines. **56:47** · Yeah. **56:47** · They have on every side they have four, five, six spines. Yeah. This is the case in Forming Shilas Aeti. This is the case in Omo Vopos or or Chiate. This is the case in Loelma Niger. And this is not the case in Formingo Chilas Tiguinos and also not the case in Ashbino's Rufus. **57:10** · In the meantime, we have a genetic analyzis of the whole complex which is which is not published officially. We are working on this project and it is nearly finished. \[clears throat\] I work together concerning this with Chris Hamilton. You know, you know Chris Emerton probably because he made the large uh Afonop Palma revision from the USA um together with Hrix and Bond. And Chris is working in in in I think it's Idaho. **57:47** · He's also a good friend of mine. He's he last year he was in Germany and we have a dinner together. Um and Chris is is working with a new technique of of analyzing genes and um um it's it's a technique um they they analyze so-called ultraconservative elements. **58:06** · This is um there in with this technique you you analyze round about half a million base pairs which means every base pair in genetic is a character. you. So you have half a million characters. What the end what what is the reason or what what you receive at the end is a very stable uh filogenetic tree where you can see okay who is related to to which species is related to which species or genus and um **58:39** · and they are very stable uh um \[clears throat\] very stable trees. every filogenetic tree is is um evolutionary here. hypothesis which species is related to which and which has a common ancestor with with which species and um so we we know that **59:00** · ashpinoilos rufus is not in the same group than the others than the lampoping finger charism and um that is the reason we recognize this from the morphological point because our description uh um um is is only based on morphological analyszis but we recognize that there are some different characters uh to the other arboral species. **59:29** · For example, there are there are when when a trarantel lives in a tree, it for example with the only toon yeah it does not mean that they always have something to do with each other. For example, you have it on your t-shirt taxos bambos. Yeah. is next related to Melopouos to the species which lives in the ground. **59:52** · Really? **59:52** · Yeah. **59:52** · Because it it lives for first it lives in the same area. Yeah. Because it comes from Thailand where also this where all the ground dwelling species comes from. uh melopoo species comes from and um and from concerning the genetical analyszis we know that tuxos **1:00:12** · bambos is next related to to meopos and has nothing to do with all the arial tarantulas which lives in borneo and and solves and so wow that's that's fascinating this yeah but this is this is that what what is what is what what we have to understand tarantulas the body of a tarantula also the coloration has a lot to do with a lifestyle. And if a trarantella lives in a tree, it they all share the same characters. **1:00:41** · They become they become long legs, broad scopula, lot of hairs, small body. Yeah. Because when you look like a teraposa and you live in a tree and you fall down, you don't do so well. **1:00:57** · Yeah. **1:00:57** · Yeah. **1:00:57** · No, \[laughter\] you don't do do so well. Exactly. Yeah. **1:01:02** · So what what was happening in the evolution is when you go up in the trees you become a small body you which means you are not so heavy when you fall down you are not so heavy and you have long long hairs on the on the legs you become long long legs so when you fall down you will not fall like a stone but you will fall like a I don't know feather yeah and and also another interesting point concerning this. **1:01:31** · When you look on when you look at an tarantula which digs holes in the ground. Yeah. Which is a ground dwelling tarantula. When you look them from the side, the the the head area, the carrop, you see that the that the area between the the between the fia and the iter is always very curved. **1:01:50** · Yeah. This is the reason the trantella needs a strong muscle to dig in the ground and the strong muscle needs space. So in evolutionary times the muscle becomes stronger and stronger especially when you dig in hard soil. **1:02:06** · Look at your aphanopama coders in the in the USA from the side they have a very strong curved so-called capi or the area between phobia and and iter and an arbor tarantula does not need a very strong muscle because there is nothing to to dig. They live in a in a in a hole in a tree or so, but they do not dig. And when you look at a tarantula from the from the side profile, you see it's very flat. **1:02:37** · Yeah. So you can just just when you take a look at the tarantula, you can imagine how the tarantula lives. Yeah. When you when you receive a tarantula and you don't know what it is, just take a look at the tarantula at the habitus at the body and then you know is it is it a ground dweller or is it tarantula which lives in the tree. Yeah. **1:02:55** · And this means on the other hand that tarantulas which evolved independently in the trees not would not necessarily have something to do with each other. Yeah. Like you see in tuxenos. Taxinos. **1:03:12** · I I think or what could be the case is that the common ancestor from Tuxenos and and Melopo was probably a ground living tarantula and because of whatever reason it was someday walking in the in the in in the in the trees or a start to to climb higher and higher. **1:03:35** · And with every more generation they be they went more uh uh up in the trees and and so the body then changed uh that that they are best adopted to the tree living. Yeah. But they they from filogenetical point they have nothing to do with the with the tarantulas which lives in Bonyo or in the trees or in Sulavves. \[snorts\] Yeah. **1:03:59** · And did you do you help with the description of that? Were you involved in that in Bambas specifically? **1:04:05** · No I no not know no um I have not I was not involved directly but the f when the the team which described it the make the first draft and send it to sois where Chris Hamilton is is one of the editors Chris sent me the manuscript because they wanted to describe this trantula first as forigosilos for **1:04:31** · bambos and um they sent I'm I'm often asked by um by specific journals whether I can make a review especially when when it comes to Asian tarantulas and uh at this time they send it to sois and so then give the manuscript to the **1:04:51** · to the specialist they have there and which is in this case Chris Hamilton he's responsible for the triangulas and Chris for itself has not the knowledge within the Asian triantulas and so he called me and said can you make a review and so he sent me the paper and I made a review and said this is you can't publish this \[laughter\] this is there are a lot of mistakes and **1:05:15** · this and this is definitely not a fingo shilas the reason is they don't want to describe as foringo chilus because they have no knowledge about what is faming about they do not they never have examined the the the type material which is deposited in the London museum yeah so they know okay filming is a tantrum which lives in the trees. This is also living in the tree in the bamboo. **1:05:38** · So for childus no it's not um because I at this time I knew the the characters of famochilus and I could clearly say this has nothing to do with fingo chilus. For example, remember what I told before the tuxinos bambos does for example not have this kumb of spines on the tibia of the front legs which is typical for for migotchilas and for for omo timers and so on. **1:06:06** · Mh. **1:06:07** · So at the end I I sent the material the the manuscript back to to uh Chris and I said Chris there are a lot of mistakes so I have I have to to make a review. I I did not say to him I make the review and in the review I mentioned that there are a lot of mistakes and that this is definitely not a forming child and and what Chris is then as editor is doing is he sending back to the to the others to the team and said hey so there here is **1:06:36** · an an reviewer he said this and this and this has to be changed or corrected and then more than one year later they they send it again to Chris but now as the description of a new genus and a new species. **1:06:51** · Mhm. **1:06:52** · Chris sent it to me. I I still found some some smaller mistakes, but not not dramatic. And um so and then they published it in in so keys as tuxedos bambos. But I'm I was not involved into this, but I had this species long time before. **1:07:14** · Mhm. **1:07:14** · It was in my colle because an an friend or I'm I'm a very good friend of mine is Dr. Peter Jger. He's the creator of the of the Senkenberg Museum in Frankfurt. **1:07:28** · So we know each other also for more than 100 years. So um \[laughter\] yeah so uh and he has a he has a colleague which is an entomologist. I don't know he specialized on butterflies or so. and he collected this tarantula in Thailand in the middle of the 2000s and Peter gave **1:07:48** · me the and he gave it to Peter when he came back to Frankfurt is a colleague which is working also in the museum in Frankfurt and uh and he gave the material to Peter and Peter gave it then to me because I'm the the one for the responsible for the Asian tarantulas Peter is not into tarantulas he's as you know sparasid uh and so he gave he gave the material to me and said can you say what it is and I examined it and said it's something new and but I had not the time **1:08:19** · and because of different other reasons it it does not came to a description and then one day I received the manuscript which were uh yeah which was given from this team uh um to took keys and Chris sent me and I recognize oh it's the same species I have in my collection for years now and they described it And yeah, it's okay for me. **1:08:43** · I love them. I've got a handful of them and I I it's one of my favorite species period. Just the natural history of them is super interesting to me. I just they're so cool. **1:08:51** · Yeah. **1:08:51** · Actually actually I'm working on this for example or or one one interesting thing is Tinos Bambos is not only distributed in the western part of Thailand. It is distributed obviously in the whole Thailand because we also have some locations from from the eastern part of of Thailand. And I'm actually working on on the description of another tuxino species. **1:09:14** · Whoa. **1:09:14** · You and probably you you all know this species. Um there is a species coming from Laos which living in in in rocks which is known in the hobby as on prison ables. **1:09:30** · Maybe you have heard of it. And this no it's it's very common here in in in uh in in Europe but very common in the meantime it's a very rare tarantula I don't know if there are still alive material but um before 10 15 years there were some specimens available and this this species is also a tuxenos but it's it does not lives in in trees taxos tuxenos does not live uh uh only in bamboos it it lives lives in bambos but it also lives in normal trees. **1:10:04** · Mhm. **1:10:04** · But um yeah, Peter Peter um class yesterday showed a picture he had yesterday a lecture about Thailand and he showed a picture from Tuxenos bambos from the eastern part which lives in a in a totally normal tree and this is known because um we had them in the **1:10:23** · hobby here before some years ago because um there were two guys which asked me for the for the location of the tuxos bambos and You remember I had this material from from this uh from Peter Jgo from the friend of Peter Jger. And so I had the location and I gave the location to them. They go to Thailand and they brought back some material. And at this time a lot of offsprings goes back to this material. **1:10:51** · And um when when when they came back from Thailand and brought some tuxos bambos, they they were told me that that they did not found them only exclusive in the bamboo trees, but also in normal trees. **1:11:10** · So yeah, it's not necessary to keep them only in bamboos in Yeah, I don't keep mine. I've tried bamboo initially and I mean it it was cool and they they seem to enjoy it, but I got mold issues with that bamboo really quick because it was also still green and and and fresh. So, you know, it was cool, but it just it wasn't practical. It just Yeah. Um I don't know if you've I don't know if you've had experience with this, but I I guess in the hobby here, it's really tough to find uh bambas males. Is that is that something that you've you've noticed? And then also is is there a potential reason why that is? **1:11:44** · Um I can't tell because um in the meantime here especially here in Europe this species is very very seldom. It's very rare here in the in the terrariums and um we have we do not have some obviously we do not have some new imports or so nobody is going to Thailand to bring some or or bred the species and so here in Europe in the meantime it is it is a very rare species and especially you you do not receive any males. **1:12:15** · Yeah, it seems like a disproportionate amount of of females to males in terms of availability because I know there's at least I only know two people I know two people with males. Justin has two males and then \[snorts\] someone locally to me has one or two and that they're rare. Males are hard to find. **1:12:35** · Yeah, males are Yeah. Normally normally you receive the males from from offsprings because nobody in nobody's making them in when you find them in the in the nature that the people which are collecting tarantulas in the nature are interested in females not the males. **1:12:50** · Mhm. **1:12:51** · And that is that is the reason why you often receive females and and not the males. And when you have then the luck that that the tarantulas make a cocoon or so then yeah then you have at the end we will have some males. But on the other side, the problem is the males will not live very long after they become adult, especially those from Asia, they they they get eaten too. **1:13:15** · Not not no that is not that is not happening often. But but when you when you see when you when you take a look at kamosa males for example, they can become five years after their mold to adult hut. Uh they they still can live for five years or so. But Asian tarantulas will not live for 5 years when they when they when they become adult then they have the mating season and thereafter they die. **1:13:40** · Uh normally my experience normally they will not eat be eaten by the females because normally the mating of Asian tarantulas is very friendly. But um Yeah. Yeah. So my my girlfriend reproduce uh specialize on ceropelma from Panama. **1:14:07** · Okay. **1:14:07** · We we we bred this uh different forms of ceropelma. I will not say species but forms and um the males the females are more aggressive than in the Asian teras. **1:14:22** · Sometimes I've I've recognized for example some shilahis what we know as shilah discolorus and onto literally going to say that I \[cough\] I have been trying for two weeks with a pair that I have here and she is awful. Oh, I was literally about to say discolus. **1:14:38** · Okay. But I've recognized when when I made discolorous, it can happen that the male is running into the tube of the female and the female comes also then and I've recognized or in the past I've seen them living together in the tube and doing nothing. Also with only a tibialis I've often seen this males and females live together for a longer time. It's no problem. I when I made my my Asian tarantulas, I will not stay and and look at them. **1:15:10** · I put them into together in the cage and the next day I take the male out. Sometimes the complete opposite. **1:15:18** · Yeah. **1:15:18** · Yeah. It can it can it can happen that the male will will be eaten by the female. For example, one of my roofers female eaten the male which I put into the into the terrarium before two weeks ago. But uh in in normal cases I had no problem to to to catch out the males on the next day. **1:15:42** · And and it it it was happened to me more than one time that the male was going into the female borrow. And you know I I keep the females the the the ground living females the borrowing females in my haplo tongues which means I have a lot of soil and when the male is down I can't he's there. He's there. Yeah. And then I recognize the female was also I've seen them because in my haplunks I can look from the side with with the lamp I can see what they am doing. **1:16:10** · That is the reason why the the original hlot which I developed um are only 10 cm broad because then I have a chance on on right or left side to to look into the into the uh end of the of the burrow. **1:16:27** · And I've often seen that the male and the female are sitting beneath to each other and doing nothing. **1:16:32** · just four weeks. **1:16:34** · Huh. **1:16:35** · Wow. I I've had quite the opposite experience. **1:16:39** · Okay. **1:16:41** · That's very interesting. I I'm glad you shared that. **1:16:44** · Yeah. Yeah. So, um normally I would say in 80 80% of of the mating of the mings I've done, the maid survived. **1:16:59** · Interesting. And in in in some South American tarantulas, it's it's much more problematic. Brahma, for example, there is much more problematic. **1:17:10** · Sometimes it happened that the female crab the the male before he's doing anything. **1:17:15** · Yeah. **1:17:16** · He's just knocking and she's there and and killed him. Okay. **1:17:21** · No shot. Yeah. **1:17:22** · Yeah. **1:17:22** · Yeah. **1:17:22** · I lost I lost my hystercrete's gigas male. He uh he died doing what he loved best, you know. He went right in the burrow and I I left him. **1:17:30** · Yeah. **1:17:30** · Yeah. It is what what is also important. It is depends on the time when you when you made the the tarantulas because tarantulas always made in the in the rainy season. Yeah. **1:17:42** · Um they there the the cyclist is the tarantulas made in the raining season. **1:17:48** · Then there comes the dry season where the the females build the cocoons and when the cocoons are finished and the the offsprings goes into the nature the raining season starts again. For example, I for example with the with the Asian also with the with the tarantulas from Panama with Copelma we found them the cocoons we found in in the area Febru March up to the beginning of April there you have the cocoons. Then in the the end of April the offspring leave the burrow of the mother. **1:18:18** · So and then in at this time the the rainy season starts which makes s which makes sense because the tarantulas let the offsprings out in the nature when the offsprings find something to eat. And what do they eat? **1:18:35** · They do eat crickets and locusts and so on. And what doing the locust and the crickets? They produce their offsprings also when the plants are growing again. **1:18:44** · Mhm. **1:18:45** · Yeah. **1:18:45** · And the plants are growing again when the rain falls. Which means the tarantulas let the the tarantula babies comes into nature when all this process starts again. Yeah. And then they find something to eat just because the crickets locos also produce their offsprings. **1:19:05** · And when the when the rainy season in the when the when the trantulas leaves the babies leaves the burrow the mother the next what she's doing is first eaten a little bit and then mold. So they mold in the beginning of the the rainy season and one two maximum three months later they are \[snorts\] able to mate again. **1:19:28** · Mhm. **1:19:29** · And they make the the pheromone silk in the front of the of the burrows. You see this in the terrarium also when you see the the the the the silk which looks very curious around the the entrance of the of the of the burrow you see the the a lot of silk there. This is the pherommon silk which is uh for the male for the males which are running around shows okay this trantula is ready. **1:19:52** · So um then they made in the in the in the in the middle up to the end of the raining season and then there comes the dry season again and the trant the females build the cocoons. This has they advance it is not so so wet. Um so they have no no probably fungus or so. And second um it is warm. It's a little bit warmer than normal. **1:20:19** · So the the babies often you see tranas hanging out the cocoons uh when the sun is shining they they yeah that's in in a colleague of me of mine a friend a friend privik um he he told me stories when he **1:20:41** · was in Bolivia in in higher regions in the he said when the when the cuckoo when the sun is coming out the female come on the beginning of the entrance of the of the burrow and they keep them out so that the sun is shining on the cocoons. **1:20:57** · Um, a friend of mine had a gramostola cocoon and she has a spot lamp on the on the terrarium and every time she make the spot lamp on the tarantra came out and and hold the cocoon under the spot lamp. **1:21:10** · I know Marshall Arachnid has observed that as well with a viculara. **1:21:14** · Yeah. **1:21:16** · Yeah. **1:21:16** · And this is is every tarantula make this. I this is one trick. I take the cocoons from the females when they build the cocoons in the hlatons because they're sitting down and I can't grab the cocoon. I I make a lamp and so the the females come up I and and then I grab the the the cocoon. **1:21:37** · That's the easiest. **1:21:38** · Wow. Even a even a fossoral will do that. **1:21:42** · Yes. **1:21:42** · Yeah. Especially I think Yeah. I would think they almost have to because it's the temperatures down in a burrow are going to be light years different than on the surface. **1:21:51** · Yeah. **1:21:51** · And the more the more the more especially in the morning, the more temperatures they receive, the the best for the for the babies which are in the cocoon for the development of the of the of the eggs. **1:22:02** · And so a lot of tarantulas, especially when they live in street banks, for example, then they hold when when it comes in the morning, the sun is shining, they Mhm. hold the the cocoons out of the burrow uh for for a time and then they they go back and I I've in all my my my breeding career of Asian buring Asian tarantulas because they're this I have a lot of my haplunks where I have different meopo and chilobis and celos. **1:22:34** · Only one time I had to destroy uh Haplunk \[cough and clears throat\] to grab the cocoon. **1:22:42** · That is only happening one time. All \[clears throat\] the other times I was able to to grab the cocoon with this trick. Place \[clears throat\] a lamp on the entrance and you will see after a few days the tarantula will come up. When she recognize, oh, there is warm, she \[clears throat\] takes the cocoon up and will hold it. And then you can very carefully open the tank. And then you can with a with the tweezers, you can grab the cocoon \[clears throat\] without destroying the HL tank. **1:23:13** · Mhm. **1:23:13** · I'm going to try that with my limitus. That's uh that's fascinating. I've never because you know I've had to dig them up in the past. That's that's very interesting. **1:23:24** · No, I never dig it. **1:23:26** · Yeah, it's a pain. Have you done anything with UV like offering UV to your your spiders at all? You notice any difference there? **1:23:32** · I was curious about that. **1:23:34** · Yeah, I don't because it works and I think that I don't know if the if the ultraviolet light is is is so important for the tarantulas which normally are active in the in in the in the darker times or in the night or in the in the the beginning of the night. And so I I've I've never made any any um yeah anything with ultraviolet light. **1:24:05** · So what what kind of conditioning and cycling do you do for the females especially with your Asian Asian stuff before you're you're pairing them up? **1:24:13** · What are you doing as far as moisture, heat or I try to to imitate what is going on in the nature. What I'm doing is for example when when when the when the when the female and the and the male when when I mate together or when they mate together then um then thereafter I place the female in a cooler area just to imitate the the the higher humidity. **1:24:40** · I make the the the soil wet again and I keep them a little bit cooler than normal. Um because in the nature as I said as I told before you have the rainy season, you have a lot of clouds. **1:24:55** · Lately at midday you have the the clouds in front of the sun. it is starting to rain and uh so I imitate this in the in the in the in the terrarium conditions and um for only about six weeks and then I grow up the temperatures and um yeah normally then the tarantulas will build a cocoon. I had a I had a room in in a in a in a town where I lived years before. **1:25:22** · I had the torantola room on the south side where the sun is is is shining on from the midday. And in February you have here the first longer area. It is very cold outside but it is the sun is shining. And so when you have this when you have the sun shining in your room uh temperature outside could be 0° or minus five or so. But when the sun is shining in the room, the room heats up. **1:25:52** · And then I I sometimes had the had the the the point when when you have such a a time when you have four to five or six days with sunshining that the toranas then build the cocoons because the the room then is heating up. Suddenly you have then in the room I had in the room then 24 degree and this and before before this started in the winter season I have only 20°. **1:26:24** · Yeah. **1:26:24** · And so they recognized okay it becomes warm sun. Uh now is the dry the dry season and then they build the cocoons and it it happened that three four uh mated females built a cocoon in such an uh uh in in this time soon. **1:26:43** · Mhm. **1:26:46** · Wow. **1:26:49** · Go ahead. **1:26:50** · Yeah. Whenever you try to to or whenever you breed tarantulas just take a look what is going on in the nature there. **1:26:57** · Yeah. **1:26:57** · \[sighs\] look at the climate and and always have in mind that the tarantula that that the tarantula it doesn't matter where you are ob whether you're in South America or in Asia they build a cocoon in the dry season because this is the best for the for the babies. Yeah. And especially when they when they uh when they hatch out of the of the cocoon and then later from the from the burrow, they come in the nature and they need something to eat. **1:27:27** · So it makes no sense to come in the nature when it is when the the dry season is started because then you will not find anything especially in areas where you really have a dry season. **1:27:40** · Yeah. **1:27:40** · Yeah. But um so when you imitate this and when you have this in your mind then yeah then it will often happen that you can really breed a lot of tarantulas. But there are of course special tarantulas which which are very difficult to breed especially when they come from the from the from mountain regions then it becomes a little bit more complicated. **1:28:08** · Has there been any species in particular that that has has been historically difficult in your in your experience, like personal experience with breeding stuff? Has there been anything in particular that stood out to you as tougher than other species to to get to reproduce? **1:28:26** · That's a good question. **1:28:30** · Not not in not in the Asian tarantulas. **1:28:33** · No. **1:28:34** · No. because the tarantulas which which I'm working with with with the Asians um yeah I've I've I've bred a lot of tarantulas from different regions from Haplasmia which comes from the from the Himalaya mountains uh up to shiate which comes from the tropical region in Malaysia and it was always possible to to breed this tarantula so it's no tarantula where I Maybe what what I've never uh what I've never could breed interestingly was haploor. **1:29:13** · Oh, really? **1:29:14** · Yeah. **1:29:14** · From from Borneo. This this was they they were imported uh in in former times in in large number and it was nearly not possible to beat them. **1:29:28** · Not only me but but also other guys which tried this and was not not possible. We don't know why because they live like the Melopouo species in Thailand. Yeah, they live in the same same way and they have the nearly the same environmental conditions, but yeah, it is difficult to to breed them obviously. \[snorts\] Do you have any insight into **1:29:58** · the morphology and and taxonomy of subfusa? **1:30:04** · \[laughter\] No. **1:30:08** · Does anybody \[laughter\] of of course I have but um as I told before my my friend Professor Henry Kravinker from the university in Trio he analyzed or he has a he has so he had he had a student in the past Michael Moore he was a Canadian guy and **1:30:32** · Michael uh made his diploma thesis um at the university and he he analyzed personalia genetically to see which species do we have. So unfortunately he never published the results of his diploma thesis. He went back to Canada and he was uh then starting to produce medical um what is the name um **1:31:06** · um this \[snorts\] plant marijuana which marijuana that was the and he started to produce medical marijuana and he was earning a lot of money and has no interested anymore to work on with Poilaria because he's sitting there and has his own company selling weed. Yeah. **1:31:28** · Yeah. **1:31:28** · Yeah. And um yeah, that is the that is that is the point. So what I want to say is we know how many species we have in how many real species we have in persia and I know that there is the discussion because of the highland forms of the subfascar there there is indeed there there are two different species **1:31:54** · but I'm not so involved into this project because pilotaria is a group which I do absolutely not working with because pil itaria is boring. So which personalia from a tax \[laughter\] wow yeah from a taxonomical point it is a **1:32:15** · very close group it is is a very stable group there is nothing which is which is for me as a as a guy which are working taxonomy which which um which is interesting in this group. Yeah. which which um which makes it um interesting for for scientific reason. Yeah, very nice tarantulas. Of course, they look very nice. Uh the the coloration is just an adoption to their environment. **1:32:43** · Again, when you put them on the bark and you you make 5 mters away, you will not see the personalia anymore because she's so good adapted to the bark. Um but from from from the point of of keeping tarantulas is a very nice group but from the taxonomical and filogenetic point it's a well definfined and very stable group and it's not so interesting for me. **1:33:13** · So there's not a whole lot of work left to do there is that exactly it's just you you are just working on a on a alpha uh tax alpha taxonomic taxonomy level. **1:33:25** · Mhm. **1:33:25** · which means alpha taxonomy is when you are working with species when you are working on species level. So uh and the more interesting thing is to to to see or to find out how are the species and the genera are connected to each other. Yeah. Who which genus is uh is next related to to to which other genus. **1:33:52** · And when it comes to species description and this is the only yeah um the only thing what is probably interesting in personalia this is uh yeah this is not very difficult this is an easy job and so yeah I'm not interested in in doing uh or in spending my energy in personalia that is the reason why I said is a boring group for me yeah I know that at the end we we I think we have still real really uh uh eight real real species. **1:34:28** · The rest are all synonymous. For example, fasciat and hanumal zumika. It's a very complicated Yeah, it's the same species. **1:34:40** · Really? **1:34:41** · It's it it is from the genetical point they they show no difference. And from from what is also clear when I asked for myself why distinguish a tarantula because of some few differences in the marking. **1:35:01** · Yeah. **1:35:01** · Because the marking of the of the legs and so is just an adoption to the environment what I've told before. And there we are in the the coloration discussion. It's just coloration. So and um it is not it does not make sense to describe a new species just because there is one band a little bit looks a little bit different than in another species. **1:35:26** · Yeah. **1:35:26** · So um it was clear when the species was described that I had my doubt that this is really a new species and the genetical results from the diploma thesis from Michael Muro shows that it is indeed no nothing else than **1:35:44** · fasciat but unfortunately as I told before the results are not published officially so and Henrik has no time to publish it because he's a professor He is a leader of an institute and so he has a lot to do of other things than publishing species description or a revision of pertilateria. **1:36:12** · Yeah, that's I mean speaking of I think of like Vietnam silvers a lot and just how again like those not being described is interesting to me because when you're looking at all the other species around it there's nothing else that really looks like it. So you I would think that there's some there would little more merit \[snorts\] to to looking into those from a taxonomic standpoint just because of how different they are from from everything. **1:36:38** · Yeah. **1:36:38** · Not not only you you are absolutely right Vietnam has a lot of interesting onto definitely because of course I have examined this material which is which is in a hobby but I I cannot I cannot describe it or will not describe it and I do not want to describe it because of the reason I mentioned um but of course I I know what it is about and exa exactly we have in in in Vietnam we **1:37:08** · have very interesting groups of ontoin for example as you can imagine what is also a long time known um when I described the hypopma at this time the haploiti yeah I mentioned that this **1:37:25** · that the species is different to the other at this time haplo species which are now in melopo but I was not sure to to establish a new genus for this so what I've done is I I've made something which is not so problematic than making a new genus which is probably not a new genus. **1:37:44** · I make it I I gave the hint in the original description that we that I established two species groups the the mile group for the meopo species from Thailand and the Schmitty group for the material they are from from Vietnam. And at the end we now know because also of the genetical analyzis we know that the haplo or at this time meloposmitti and the melohanos and also the bahmar they belong to a new genus. **1:38:19** · We have to create for a new genus for this for this group because we in the meantime we analyze them genetically. they are far away from the melopo and we also have what I've what I've recognized in the in the description 1991 we have some clear morphological differences in both group by which you can differentiate them for example the white bird above the uh the chillescopula the white hairs yeah has the white hairy has **1:38:52** · the white hairs and the the bakma also and no No meloperos has any white hair or there and in the structure of the stimulating origin you've you will also see some very clearly differences and so **1:39:07** · it is clear this is something new and as I told before in the meantime we have we have analyzed them genetically we have so we see how are the the the different genera are connected to each other and the the meopos shows a a different clay eight um in in in contrast to the um material from Vietnam. So it is it is absolutely sure that this material or this group should belong into a new genus. **1:39:43** · Is there what species did everything in that whole whole group where did they all branch off from? Do you like what's the basil species with the hopelma malopius stuff? **1:39:56** · Uh I I don't know what what what what what do you mean exactly? **1:40:01** · So with I'm going to say hipeloma just for the the sake of Yeah. Yeah. **1:40:06** · Keeping it simple. Um like what's what's the species that stuff branched off from in those? Like where did that they all sort of originate from if if that's been pinpointed at all? **1:40:17** · The common ancestor maybe is what Yeah. **1:40:20** · Yeah. Um \[laughter\] that's a good question. Um we see that that for example when we are talking particularly about this Vietnam stuff and the Melopo they are related to each other. Yeah. Because they build sister groups. Sister groups means they are they they they show different clates. **1:40:44** · Mhm. **1:40:44** · Yeah. **1:40:44** · Different branches but they have one common ancestor. But I can't I I cannot say how the common ancestor looks what what what characters he had at this time when when the common ancestor lives before I don't know hundred thousands of years ago. **1:41:03** · So that that is that what I'm I I I do not know I I I I know they have characters which in every group which they which are exclusive for this group which are called sunapomorphies which are only in this groups and some characters they they share because of these characters they share they we recognize they they are sister groups and they have a common ancestor. **1:41:33** · So we can imagine that the characters with which both share were also characters which the common ancestor has or had. Yeah. But there is no species where we can say this is the oldest species. You know this is this is a taxonomical problem because every when every time you have a split. Yeah. **1:41:53** · Um then you have two two lines two branches and the the the the top of the branch is the actual is that what is actually there and this receive a name. Yeah. For example, hypopmai and the other is the hypopma liidum to make it easy. **1:42:15** · Yeah. **1:42:15** · So, but the the the specimens which connected them before 500,000 years ago are not a liidom or a schmitty because this is in this way something new something else. **1:42:31** · Yeah, I got you. And so but we can what we can say is when we when we look at the at the different branches and who is connected, we see of course that there is one line or one branch which is which is very base on this whole complex and the others are not so base are more in the the top area. **1:42:56** · Mhm. **1:42:56** · And so we have one one branch or one species which is probably um which which shows characters um from the probably oldest on and um yeah I'm sure you will not uh you will you will not think what this species is. We have them in the in the terrariums. Um not so often, but we have them. **1:43:25** · And um we we think actually that it is possible that Lampropelma Carpenter is the the so-called the oldest onion we have because Lampropelma Carpenter has one character in common with the next relatives groups. Yeah. The next rel the sister group of the on Yeah. of the whole onitotonia the sister group where the onto shares a common ancestor is pilotaria so okay and when you okay this is the next relative and when you **1:44:03** · there are a lot of genetic work done there are I don't know how many publications in the meantime which always shows the same they come always to the same result from the morphological that is interesting from the morphological point I would never expect perseria as the the sister group uh from on I personally always thought that the hakactina from Africa is the sister group because they share some interesting characters. **1:44:33** · Mhm. **1:44:34** · All only have on the outside of the shellera they have a large pad of scopula which is feed hairs. Yeah. And the same pad has the hact. Yeah. Terino, Seratugurus and so on. And so I always thought that must be the the the the sister group because the common ancestor obviously had this pad of of fever hairs and gives it to the hacterion onto the onto. **1:45:02** · But from the genetical point uh we we know for sure it is not the harpacter. The harpaction is the sister group of the omen of which makes sense from the from the biogeographical point. Um but the next relatives to the onto is persilotaria and when you when you take a look at the persia males they lack a tibia profuses. **1:45:30** · Mhm. **1:45:31** · Yeah. **1:45:32** · And lropelma carpenter is the only onion species by which the males have no tiuses. **1:45:41** · All the other all the other males have them. And we also know because of some unpublished uh genetical analyzes that they indeed group in the very base of the onto tree. Hm. **1:45:58** · So which can be which which probably can be the case that this is the oldest onian name which is not the oldest in this sense because it's an actual species but the characters this species shows are probably the most we say plesomorphic state which means they the most characters which have which are also obviously the case in the ancest in the common ancestor. **1:46:27** · Wow. **1:46:28** · Wow. That's that's kind of mind-blowing. **1:46:30** · I never would have expected that. **1:46:34** · I'm also not \[laughter\] because I I the we don't know unfort unfortunately we do not know what uh where lumper managerium will stay in the tree because we have no genetical analyszis of this species. And it is interesting. **1:46:52** · Um my feeling is that I suppose that lampopirim when you when it comes to the genetic point is not nearer related to the propel carpenter because they are also morphologically very different when you I don't know if when you look at carpenteri this is one of the most ugly serant I have it is the **1:47:18** · case I today I have one adult large adult female in my terrarium And today I feed my tarantulas also she and I recognize oh she's molting. So I grab out the the mold. And then I talked to my to my girlfriend and I showed her the mold the the exuvia and um and we came to the conclusion this is the most ugliest tarantula of the \[laughter\] world. And it is because she's she has so long legs. She has not much hairs on the legs. **1:47:50** · Big feet. Yes. Yeah. The very broad scula. Yeah. But Yeah. But when you take a look at the the habitus of this tarantula. Yeah. Remember how pilotia looks like? **1:48:02** · They're also long legs. They are not very hairy on the they have very nice colored legs. But when you look at the at the homoimus shete or from from shilas uh or avicularia or so when you have when you live in the tree you normally have a lot of hairs long hairs and they they the carpenteri has yeah some few long hairs on the legs but in general she's not very hairy and pilotia is also not very hairy. **1:48:32** · Mhm. **1:48:32** · Yeah. **1:48:32** · And so uh I see I see some some some connections to pilotaria also especially what I said before the males do not have no TB upperesus it's the only only species and when I when I compare the the the characters from carpenti with the character from Lampoelma nerum I see a lot of differences. **1:48:57** · The only character they have in common is that what what was published by Sherwood when they placed both in the same genus that the embleos of the bulb is is a little bit thickened but for me that is uh that is not enough not enough but these are these are the problems I'm dealing the whole day with. Yeah. **1:49:21** · \[laughter\] Uh do you know anything as far as like with Sarah de Gyrus and uh you know the horned the horned species. Do you do you have any theories on why those have those? Is there anything is there's done? **1:49:37** · Yeah, there are some theories that the normally the Fuvia is an adoption point for the muscle. Yeah. **1:49:44** · So so there's the the question why a horn? **1:49:49** · Yeah. **1:49:49** · And um so there are some some tears in the in the in the past where um where people thought that maybe they they this is for um yeah for save some some um um how can I say um some energy **1:50:11** · or so yeah for for hard times that they can use the energy which I which they which they yeah have in the horn. or so I don't know but I have no I have really no no stable theory what is the horn about interestingly the horn we have another species on a **1:50:32** · totally other area name is namely spherria of mani in middle middle America which also has such a hold not so not so impressive but it has also such such a structure yeah but we don't know exactly what is it for h that's nature. Nature something sometimes makes makes things which are not which seems to be not logic. **1:51:00** · No intelligent design. **1:51:01** · Yeah, exactly. **1:51:05** · Uh how has the process of taxonomy and and just you know sorting the morphology changed from the 90s until until now? **1:51:19** · \[snorts\] Is it easier now than it was in the 90s? Like just from a technological standpoint was it the main change or the main the main things which changed is that the genetic part uh becomes so important. In the meantime in the when it starts in the 19 beginning of 2000, genetical analyzis was very very expensive and so it was it was not really not common in in in uh in taxonomy and filogeni in general. Yeah. **1:51:52** · Um and in the meantime genetic analyzis becomes more and more cheaper. Um and so it is more and more interesting for institutes and and students to analyze the groups uh with yeah with genetical analyzis and the techniques there are different techniques which were developed which were more and more uh um robust and and brought more and more very good results. **1:52:31** · And so in the meantime, it is it is totally sense to um yeah when for good scientific work to to uh to analyze a group uh not only morphology with morphology but with an integrative approach which means morphology and systematic genetic. Yeah. **1:52:53** · And that is that what what um that is the critic uh which I have in a lot of publications which were made by an English team in the past especially in in in triumpulas from from South America. **1:53:09** · Um I don't want to mention any name here but every every guy which are working with this in in this hobby probably knows what I'm talking about but there is uh this group produced a lot of new species and and uh and and genera um only by by morphology morphology and characters and the the the most problematic thing is when you use morphology then you can analyze the morph morphology characters um by filogenetic um techniques. **1:53:55** · Mhm. **1:53:55** · I would say this there are special programs which which can analyze \[clears throat\] also morphology. You have to you have to code the mor morphology character. You can for example when when the question is a character there or not like we have the example with the tibiais you say tbuses there is one and tb ofus is not there is zero. So and when you make a matrix then you have a lot of characters and you have a lot a lot of specimen species and a lot of characters and then you can you can use this kind of coding. **1:54:31** · If you have a character for example you have the the question uh is there no spine is there one to two spine or is there more than than three spines and you can say no spine is zero one to two spine is one and more than three spine is two yeah and so you can you can make a matrix and then you can analyze this by different programs I don't want to explain the technique behind this because it would be much more too too technical. **1:55:02** · But when you use this, you also get an impression of the relationships of the different uh material you analyze. The problem is you have them for example, you have 20 species and you have 40 characters. Yeah. Which you really can use. At the best it should be homologous characters but which is different to interpret when you lose when you use genetic you have every base pair is a character. **1:55:35** · Oh man. **1:55:36** · And then and when you when you make when when you make simple simple genetic genetic analyzers of CO1 gene or 16S gene or 28S gene then you have 500 base pairs. So we have 500 characters. the **1:55:53** · more characters you can analyze the more stable the result will be right and what what we made with the filogenomic uh analyzes of the subfamilies before some years ago there was a paper I was also as a author on it's from fool and from ludic and um there we make an **1:56:14** · analyze of the subf family how are the subfamilies we connected to each other and there we use a very new technique um where we used 1 million base pairs and so every node on in this tree has has a stability of 100%. Exact except two nodes which were only 98%. **1:56:39** · When you make this with when you make an analyzis with with morphology characters then you receive for note when it is really good maybe 75 to 80%. Yeah. You see when you work with genetic it is much more stable. Yeah. And this these people which described in the last years a lot of new gene era in in South America and new species they do not work with morphology filogenetic and they do not work with genetic filogenetic. **1:57:12** · Yeah. And um they just describe the species on the Geneva because they say, "Oh, there's a new character and uh I interpreted this character as very important." **1:57:24** · So is it really important? Everybody knows. **1:57:27** · Yeah. **1:57:27** · And so they produced a they worked in in in this way like Schmidt worked before 30 30 40 years ago. And this is not not the technique we use today. And that is the reason why I do not work with this. I of course I can describe if I want I can describe a lot of my unknown species in my collection that is that would be very easy. Yeah. **1:57:56** · But uh I will not because uh I when I make a description then I I will make it as best as I can and \[snorts\] that is the reason why I work together with with the institutes and with the with the professionals because they can in this way use the genetic part which I do not can I do not have the possibility the knowledge and also not the technique the material um **1:58:24** · and the there uh we are we are working always good together concerning this because they have the problem when they make the genetic analyze they should know from what species do we have the genes here right you know and then I came into the game because I have the knowledge about the species which which were described and where the type material is in the museums and I can say then I can then **1:58:51** · receive the material where they took the the the the flesh what they analyze genetically and I look at the morphological characters to find out is is it identical with the type or not **1:59:07** · that that's the reason why why why I'm why there are this many scientific works where we always are a team of authors there are the genetic guys there is the the team leader which is normally a professor or so for example Example with my colleagues from the Philippine, there is always one author which is the Leonardo Guera which is the the team leader which is a doctor which are working in on the institute in Manila **1:59:39** · and uh yeah which he is the one often he has not not so much to do with the project for itself. Yeah. He he does not examine any species also but he he give the advice to the people what to do to the students what to do he's the supervisor and he's on the paper of course although the work was done by by the students or by me with a morphological part **2:00:09** · a lot of work has there been any species that you've actually like taken part in uh going to the and finding them. \[snorts\] Do you mean species which I have correct? **2:00:24** · Yes, I'm sorry. I should have uh described that. **2:00:27** · No, there's no described species which I've found in the nature. That has something to do I I I'm not so often in in the nature. You you would probably laugh. I'm the chief for the Asian tarantulas. I was never in Asia. **2:00:41** · \[laughter\] I I I was searching for tarantulas in in Texas in San Antonio. I was searching for tarantulas in Cyprus and I was in Panama. And um so I'm the the collection of the tarantulas. And uh yeah **2:00:59** · simply the collection of the triangulas is part of of the friends of mine uh like in the past Jean Michelle Verde you know the Veresi and so that there are guys which which which are friends of mine which were went to the to the uh yeah to the locations collected to tarantulas then brought them to me and um I'm the one who then thereafter sitting there and this analyzing the the material they brought. **2:01:28** · That is you're doing all the magic behind the scenes with the microscope. **2:01:33** · Yeah. **2:01:33** · Yeah. Yeah. That is more interesting for me than Yeah. It makes fun of course to go into the nature and searching for tarantulas. Of course, because there are a lot of lot of biological things you will only recognize and see when you see the tarantulas in the nature. Especially you can you can you can find some uh impressions how to to to organize the cage uh what what should I bring into the cage? What what how this the triangular lives? Yeah. **2:02:02** · But um the more important and more interesting part for me is is then thereafter looking at the dead material. **2:02:15** · What species were you looking for in Cyprus? **2:02:18** · A chattoma. **2:02:19** · Yes. **2:02:21** · I was hoping that's what I was hoping he would say. I love those things. **2:02:23** · Yeah, I we I we were we we collected there chat to pay mala money. **2:02:28** · I was I was there at this time in 1996 with a describer of the kalamani and we we we collected there some material and he later described the species and we also um searched for the chatma olivac and um yeah we found a lot. **2:02:47** · This was uh chat Olivium lives very interesting in the I was in the northern part of of Cyprus in the Turkish area and uh there the the the tarantulas lives in the walls of the the stone walls of houses and um and and only in the in the walls which which has the north direction. **2:03:11** · Mhm. **2:03:11** · probably the south or west or so becomes too warm when the sun is shining and um so we found we found a lot of of chattop I have a a good collection that the the the reason for the many tarantulas we found was one morning we **2:03:30** · were going to the bakery to to pick up some bread and we are going there was a a factory um um was this power by the street worker um um construction worker. **2:03:45** · Yeah. **2:03:45** · Yeah. **2:03:45** · He was and there was a wall on a on a on a on a on a on a field just a wall and he has he had the the job to destroy this wall. So uh and um because they wanted to build something else there, a house or whatever. So he has to destroy the wall. And we saw this and we know that the tarantulas lives in in this walls. So we went back to the hotel packing a a cricket box. We had one or two cricket box with us. **2:04:15** · Packing a cricket box going back to him and said here please when you find torrentas Yeah. in in Turkish area there it called bujek which means large spider. Uh then please pack it into the into the box. Oh yeah no problem. I will do. **2:04:31** · So Patrick and I we then go on the day to to another location and searching for to tarantula did not found anything and in the afternoon we came back and he finished the completely he destroyed completely the wall and then he gave us the boxes with the crickets and every box there were 10 tarantulas. **2:04:53** · \[snorts\] Yeah. **2:04:54** · Wow. **2:04:54** · So we \[laughter\] he put every tarant is a box. So, and we say, "Oh my god, the tarantula start to to kill themselves." **2:05:02** · So, we pack the we pack the boxes running back to the to the hotel and then we we unpacked the tarantulas in other boxes. So um and the result was large number I think I think about 15 uh specimen uh different females and different sizes and so yeah because the wall was I don't know 20 30 m long and and two 1 m 50 to **2:05:31** · 2 m high and so there was enough space for a lot of tarantulas and we did not expect that he would found so many But uh yeah, he said, "Okay, he put every tarantula he could find in the in the in the box." And at the end, we have two boxes worth in every box 10 triangulas. And he understood the job. **2:05:52** · He understood his job. Yeah. Yeah. We \[laughter\] we gave him Patrick gave him some some I think it was $5 or so because he had some dollars still in his pocket because from the traveling to the US before \[laughter\] and he gave him $5 and he was happy. Uh because for him $5 is was a lot of money and we had a lot of tarantulas without doing anything because it is very difficult to get the tarantulas out **2:06:19** · of the wall when when they are sitting there because when you make one wrong move the tarantula goes back and never come comes again. When you go in the night, it was also interesting. When you go in the night, you can you can uh uh look at the walls with the lamp and you always see the legs outside of the of the between the different stones of the wall. **2:06:42** · Interesting. Is this when then the police stops behind you? **2:06:46** · Yeah, \[laughter\] we had this and they asked what what we because I can imagine you are in a village in the night and there are two German idiots standing there and working with a lamp. And then suddenly the police stops. Yeah. What we are doing there? And yeah, we said we are coming from Germany and we are searching for you get MJ. **2:07:07** · I can tell you they look very interesting at this moment because they you really you really saw that they said okay the Germans \[laughter\] was interesting. Yeah. That is the small stories you have with this. When I when I was in Panama, we have a lot of of so so very funny stories that is that interesting when you go into the nature in foreign countries. Um yeah, you will have a lot of experience outside of of beside collecting torantas. This is also interesting. **2:07:38** · But also with the people and and yeah the experience with the country what you make. This is uh yeah we for example in Panama we also had a police problem. We were down in the Darian area and the Darian area is a little little bit problematic because there was the smuggle line to Colombia. **2:07:58** · They are smuggling drugs there. They're smuggling people there and um \[clears throat\] we were there to searching for Cerakma and we were we were driving a small street and suddenly the street ends on a on a corn field. There was no corn there. There was nothing. Yeah. And the street ends. So we turned and when we finished turned, three police officers in in in complete jacket black. We we only saw the eyes with with machine guns in their hand. They stand be beside me. **2:08:32** · One on the left on the right side, one on the left and one in front of the car. And we don't know where they came from. We just turned the car. We have not seen them. And suddenly they were there. Yeah. They also asking what we are doing there and my colleague Andrea Sturm you know him from the steremy. **2:08:49** · Mhm. **2:08:49** · Um he I was together with him there and uh and he he talked then or he tell told them in Spanish that we are coming from Germany and you know the story looking for tarantulas and yeah and then they yeah they relaxed and they recognized okay they are just idiots from Germany just a couple birds looking for spiders. Yes. Yes. Yes. The same the same procedure as in as in Cyprus. **2:09:17** · Yeah. And uh and so you have always very very interesting experience. **2:09:24** · Yeah. **2:09:24** · I love Kapelma. I have I have two females of the Olivacium and I I really enjoy those. I feel like those don't get nearly enough enough love in the hobby. They're just like Yeah, they're brown. **2:09:34** · They're not super pretty or anything, but they're just little bulldogs, man. Like I'll I'll pick the container up to put food in there and they're like coming out of the burrow like ready. like they know what's going on. They're Yeah, they're so much fun. It's such a fun species. **2:09:47** · Yeah, we we we really had had a lot of fun. Interesting is also because they they they really have cold temperatures in the winter season. **2:09:56** · Yeah. **2:09:56** · And they live in the in the walls there. **2:09:58** · So there is not like in the burrow in the down in the ground where where the temperatures is not so strong like outside but um they live in the stone wards there and in the winter it can become very cold there. No, not not not not uh in minus degrees, but uh it can be when when there is cloudy and and it is really winter season, it can happen that they only have 10 degree or so. **2:10:25** · Mhm. **2:10:25** · Oh wow. **2:10:26** · Yeah. **2:10:26** · Yeah. Their spermatica are really weird looking too. **2:10:30** · Mhm. **2:10:31** · Have I sent you a picture of them, Phil, right? And you saw those. Do you remember those at all? **2:10:35** · Yeah. Yeah. **2:10:35** · Like really long with a little bulb on the end. They're just strange. **2:10:39** · Very oddly shaped. Yeah. **2:10:43** · \[snorts\] Uh just a just a question because we have here evening or it it starts to becomes now now in the night. How long does the interview takes uh or still take usually we wrap it up about about right now. So yeah, I was going to say about two hours. Two hours and change. Yeah. **2:11:02** · Okay. because I have I just have to eat my my my dinner and then there then later go in bed because tomorrow is again working. **2:11:13** · Yeah. Yeah. **2:11:14** · Big day of spiders every day. **2:11:19** · Well, if anyone has Do you have anything else, Phil? I I was going to say for like a a last question, is there is there something in the hobby that you'd like to see be done differently or or something that people used to do that you wish kind of came back? Um just because you've been involved for so long. **2:11:40** · There are a lot of things which I hope will never come back \[laughter\] because we've we've done a lot of mistakes. Of course, as I told before, when when I started uh with the hobby, there was no information about tarantulas and so we make a lot of mistakes and a lot of tarantulas died because of of wrong uh of the wrong yeah we keep them wrong and and yeah, so I hope this will never come back. **2:12:09** · Um what I would wish for the people today is that that when we start with or when people start with keeping tarantulas that they first inform about tarantulas. We are we have the very very uh good situation today that we have a lot of informations. We knew much more about tarantulas and about the biology of tarantulas uh than before 40 years ago when I started. **2:12:39** · So um um when I when I go in Facebook group and I see that the Toronto is photographed laying on the back and the people asking what is happening now or when the when the male is adult and has the hooks and the people ask what what is going on with his legs. **2:12:57** · So then I see that they have never read a book or or something else and \[clears throat\] yeah that is um yeah this is this is um I don't think or I feel I feel not okay for this because um this is when when you do not when you do not know anything about the biology of the tarantulas then you probably keep them wrong and what will happening to the tarantula is she will Mhm. **2:13:29** · And um yeah and um so we have we have the possibility today to receive so many informations. In the meantime artificial uh intelligent uh is so good when you when you asked um in in in giving informations about loss. Of course not all is correct. Yeah. But um when you are when you ask artificial intelligence uh what is the hook on the leg? It will explain you what it is and for what it is. Yeah. **2:14:03** · For example, or when you say my tarantula lays on the back. What is she doing? I'm sure artificial intelligence will say it lays on the back because it started to mold. Yeah. And um so it is so easy to to today to receive informations but the people obviously seems to be so lazy. **2:14:22** · Mhm. **2:14:23** · Yeah. **2:14:23** · They they asking always the same questions in the Facebook groups. So one one person will definitely answer and uh but the problem is what what I more and more recognize is you have people which are keeping tarantulas for a half year and they are the experts in the Facebook groups for example. Yeah. **2:14:42** · And then they give advices to to the beginners. they they for themselves they have no knowledge about this but they give them advices to to beginners and and this makes it problematic because um and also when people are are are talking in areas where they really have no knowledge from especially the last time the the discussion concerning the what I told before the pulra and the quirkai **2:15:11** · a lot of discussion in in the in this in the hobby in the in the in the groups and Hey, you have the experts which say, "Yeah, I really know what a pulkra is. A pulkra has to look like this." **2:15:25** · Then then yeah, I'm speechless sometimes. And I say, "Okay, what I'm doing here?" And \[laughter\] I'm I'm I'm I'm I always make fun when people are asking uh um the ID question placing a picture and then asking what is it? **2:15:42** · So I I always tell the people uh it is not possible yeah to to idea trula from the picture and yeah in most cases normally when because I do not say only it is not possible I explain why it is not possible why the coloration depends on so many different factors and yeah normally I would wish the people would say oh thank you for for the for the hint I've learned a lot um no the people react aggressive. **2:16:14** · Yeah. **2:16:14** · And so yeah, sometimes I'm sometimes because Facebook is the only social media I'm I'm active within and sometimes I'm I recom I do not I do not make anything anything else than than um making my Torant stuff stuff there giving some sometimes hints or uh making some pictures also or some showing also some characters and the other thing what I'm making in Facebook is my heavy metal stuff. Yeah. **2:16:44** · When I'm when I'm going on festivals or so, I I make the or concerts, I make the pictures and Yeah. But this is the only thing. I I do not start any political discussions or whatever. But I I Yeah. I'm I'm always shocked when when I'm when I'm talking in groups and I explain the people Yeah. the situation and and then they want to to correct me and and tell me how to identify tarantulas. **2:17:15** · So, uh sometimes I I'm nearly at the point to quit all the That's why I'm just I'm not I'm not Yeah. Facebook groups. I'm in a few, but I'm I'm not active really in any of them. I just I read and I just observe. **2:17:28** · Just Yeah. I I don't normally if someone asks a question, like five other people are going to answer the exact same thing. So, I have no no desire to to jump in there and and get my my input as well. You know, it's Yeah, it's whatever. \[sighs and gasps\] \[snorts\] But if people want to get a hold of you, they have questions or anything like that, what's the best best way for them to do that? **2:17:50** · To tell me to write me. **2:17:53** · Facebook email. **2:17:55** · Facebook email. It's the simplest way. **2:17:59** · Yeah. **2:17:59** · Yeah. Cool. And if if people have questions, I'm normally the one uh who answers every question. **2:18:06** · Yeah, it can. **2:18:08** · Just don't just don't tell him he's wrong when he answers it because he's right. **2:18:12** · And when they that is the interesting when they when they when they write private Yeah. for with email or so I never have any problems with with with the people. **2:18:21** · Yeah. **2:18:22** · But when they are in the public Yeah. then then they react totally. Very interesting. **2:18:31** · Yeah. **2:18:31** · But but uh every when when people have have questions or so, they can always get in contact to me and I will normally always answer probably not directly because I have too much to do. But man in Yeah. But but in in a in a time of three two three four days, I will answer. **2:18:53** · Awesome. **2:18:54** · Well, we really appreciate you coming on, man. It means a lot to us. And yeah, Vulkar, thank you so much for for spending time with us because you are you are so busy and so knowledgeable. So this was this was excellent. I really learned a lot and I really appreciate it. **2:19:07** · Yeah, it makes fun. One one thing for maybe I I can explain. Um I'm always I'm I'm I'm a citizen scientist. Yeah. What we call a citizen scientist. I I studied biology but I didn't not finish it and I have another job but so I'm that what what you call a citizen scientist but I'm one of the few citizen scientists which have the connections to the scientist and which have the connection to the to the hobby. Yeah. **2:19:38** · And there's this is a very rare uh um how can I say um situation because I I do not know of a lot of people or or I do not know a lot **2:19:54** · people which have which have exactly this which are for example Rick West is also one he's also a citizen scientist and um but \[clears throat\] he's not so active in the social media a little bit Facebook but not so active but Um so the people have in me they have the possibility like you you have it now with with this interview to to bring to make a bridge from the hobby to the scientist to the scientific part of the hobby. Yeah. **2:20:23** · And um so this is this is what I what I wanted to to um explain uh before. So instead of using this Yeah. and and saying okay here have now here is the guy which can explain the complicated things with easy words they they try to correct me when it comes to identification also in in the public of social media so they were my last words **2:20:56** · we appreciate it thank you so much okay as always episode is brought to you by tarantula addicts check it out discord gg/ta. It is down in the description. And then fulvis apparel. Fulvis apparel.com. New shirts just dropped in the vintage vault. More stuff coming. **2:21:14** · Use the code THN at checkout. Get 15% off your order. That is the exclusive promo code for THN listeners and viewers like you. And we will be back Thursday for round three with brand rarities. **2:21:26** · Yes. Because Phil's getting been getting into scorpions, but we'll get into that on Thursday. Um he's it's a new problem. But yeah, it's it'll be good. **2:21:36** · Yeah, we love Brandon. You know, he's the first person, I think, to have a third third episode, but always enjoy talking to him regardless. So, we will see everybody Thursday. That one will be live. Uh so, check out the uh announcement for that when it gets ready to go. And we will see everybody later. **2:21:57** · Okay. The legendary, Volker Von Wirth, joins us this round as we discuss taxonomy, his career in tarantulas, breeding and more. Grab some swag and use the code THN @ checkout for 15% off at https://fulviusapparel.com/ Join the Tarantula Addicts Discord - https://discord.gg/ta check out moltly - https://moltly.xyz/ https://spiders.invert.info/